This topic came about because of investigating the "test the spirits" idea associated with Mary Tudor.

Unfortunately as time goes on we realised that Herbert Armstrong really did not know as much about the bible as we thought and this is by delving into his books. In this particular case The Incredible human potential; and the topic, Spirit beings and death.

The actual wording used in his book is- Angels are immortal Spirit beings and cannot die. Page 41. The incredible human potential, by Herbert W Armstrong; middle of the page. ISBN # 0-932694-01-2.

For such an important idea there is interestingly no scriptural reference point.

The scripture that has been used to attempt to show that Satan goes on forever was Rev. 20:10 Where it is stated that "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." A reference is also made to Rev. 14:10-11.

The thinking then went on to reason that Satan was then going to be permanently put in a hole in the ground and trapped there forever, tormenting over what "might have been".

God has just recently opened my mind and others in revealing that Satan will die. No where in the bible does it say that spirit beings cannot be destroyed. The reverse is true. With God all things are possible. Matt.19:26

It is well known that angels can materialize and dematerialize. Gen.18:2 and Heb.13:2 show this. It is also well known in true Christian circles that Jesus Christ came in the flesh. So that, (as is also well known) that as HE existed from eternity as the Word, HE then divested himself of all of his power and became a normal flesh and blood human being.

As regards living a sin free life, it is well known that Christ could have "blown" it by sinning. This he did not do even when hanging on the stake. It was a case of "thy will be done".

It is recorded that he died in Matt 27:50; Mark 15:37; 2 Cor. 5:15 and Rom. 14:9. For all intents and purposes this guy was now destroyed. The Romans were happy with the idea and the Jews even more so. He was destroyed. If his body had lain more than 3 days in the tomb it would have had to be buried because of smelly decomposition or burned to become ashes.

The point to be got across here is that here we have a being that had been a spirit being once; and that when he had "given up the ghost" (died, as a flesh and blood one) he was destroyed. We call it just being dead.

But now let's get back to Rev. 20:10

"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

The question that came to my mind was-does tormented day and night for ever and ever -mean to be continually tormented for ever going into billions of years down throughout eternity ahead of us?

The answer starts to come through with II Peter 2:4-5: "For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered then into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto Judgment; and spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eight person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing the flood upon the world of the ungodly.---

It becomes even clearer when we read in Jude 6- And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Satan and his demons are in chains of darkness now but have influence in the world now. For 1000 years they will be held in a pit so that they have absolutely no influence in the kingdom of God. They will be released for a little season.

Now Herbert when he referred to the subject of the downfall of lucifer, referred to Ezek. 28:12, where thou sealest up the sum, been in Eden, created, anointed; and then we come to verse 16, which doesn't quite fit in with Herbert's ideas of stopping or ending, ever lastingness for spirit beings who sin. So that on page 50 of the same book he writes-"and I will destroy [remove] thee." Whereas the bible says and I will destroy thee, O covering Cherub. Herbert does not use the term destroy but just remove.

Finally, verse 18. This is also conveniently forgotten as it does not fit in with his scheme of things that spirit beings that sin, do not go on forever.

Verse 18 says: "and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee." Then to confirm this, verse 19 says- "All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be ANY MORE".

Malachi 4:3 also confirms this. "And ye shall tread down the wicked for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the lord of hosts." Rom. 16:20 "And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet".

And as Rev. 20: 14 points out, this is the second death.

Editors comments

To date we have not found any errors

Where did we get Christmas? from the Bible, or paganism? Here are astonishing FACTS which may shock you! Do you know the origin of Christmas tree - of "Santa Claus, of the mistletoe, holly-wreath,-custom of exchanging gifts?

Introduction: when I was growing up I believed in Santa Claus and the celebration of Christmas. I got married and had children. I did not want to teach my children that it was okay to tell a lie. If they found out that I was lying about Santa Claus . . . they might wonder if I was telling the truth about Jesus Christ. In mid-1955 I came across this booklet, "The Plain Truth about Christmas." It opened my eyes to the truth about Christmas. I am reprinting it hoping it will be as helpful to you as it was to me.

Tom Justus, Pastor

Church of God, Sabbath Day

Springdale, Arkansas

September, 1997

Presented By: Church of God UK

Does Christmas really celebrate the birthday of Jesus? Was He born on December 25th? Did Paul, the apostles, and the early Church of the New Testament celebrate Christmas? Do you know what the BIBLE says about the Christmas tree?

Stop and think! Very few know WHY we do the things we do, or WHERE our customs came from! We were born into a world filled with customs. We grew up practising them, taking them for granted, but NEVER QUESTIONING WHY!

We have supposed CHRISTMAS to be the chief of the Christian holidays. Without asking questions, we have blindly assumed its observance must be one of the principle teachings and commands of the New Testament. We have supposed Jesus was born December 25th, and that the New Testament set this day aside as the chief Christian festival. We have supposed we exchange gifts because the wise men presented gifts to the Christ-child.

But, let's quit supposing, and look into history and the Bible for the FACTS!

The word "Christmas" means "Mass of Christ" or, as it later became shortened, "Christ-Mass." It came to us as a Roman Catholic mass. And where did they get it? From the HEATHEN celebration of December 25th, as the birthday of Sol the SUN-GOD! It is, actually, an ancient rite of BAALISM, which the Bible condemns as the most abominable of all idolatrous worship!

It is not so much as MENTIONED anywhere in the New Testament. It was never observed by Paul, the apostles, the early true Christian church!

The idea that Jesus was born December 25th, is one of the FABLES the Apostle Paul prophesied (11 Tim. 4:4) would deceive the world in these latter days.

The plain truth is, Christmas is NOT Christ's birthday at all! And this festival, important as it seems to so many, is not of Christian, but of pagan Babylonish-origin! But does that make any difference? Isn't it all right to go ahead and observe it anyway? Isn't the "Christmas SPIRIT" a good and splendid thing, regardless of how it got started? WE SHALL SEE!

Now let's look to the interesting PROOF! When was Jesus born?

Jesus was not even born in the winter season! When the Christ-child was born "there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night" (Luke 2:8). This never could have occurred in Palestine in the month of December. The shepherds always brought their flocks from the mountain sides and fields and corralled them not later than October 15, to protect them from the cold rainy season that followed that date. Notice that the Bible itself proves in Song of Solomon 2:1 1, and Ezra 10:9, and 13, that winter was a rainy season not permitting shepherds to abide in open fields at night.

It was an ancient custom among Jews of those days to send out their sheep to the fields and deserts about the Passover (early-spring), and bring them home at commencement of the first rain, says the Adam Clarke Commentary, Vol. 5., page 386.

Continuing, this authority states: "during the time they were out, the shepherds watched them night and day. As ... the first rain began early in the month of Marchesvan, which answers to part of our October and November [begins mid October], we find that the sheep were kept out in the open country during the whole summer. And, as these shepherds had not yet brought home their flocks, it is a presumptive argument that October had not yet commenced, and that, consequently, our Lord was not born on the 25th, of December, when no flocks were out in the fields; nor could He have been born later than September, as the flocks were still in the fields by night. On this very ground, the nativity in December should be given up. The feeding of the flocks by night in the fields is a chronological fact . . . See the quotations from the Talmudists in Light foot."

Any encyclopaedia, or any other authority, will tell you that Christ was not born on December 25. The Catholic Encyclopaedia frankly states this fact. The exact date of Jesus' birth is entirely UNKNOWN, as all authorities acknowledge - tho if I had space in this booklet I could show you Scriptures which at least strongly indicate that it was in the early fall-probably September-approximately six months after Passover.

If God had wished us to observe and celebrate Christ's birthday, He would not have so completely hidden the exact date.

There is not one word in the New Testament, or anywhere in the Bible, telling us to observe Christmas. The Christians of the first century, under the inspired teachings of Peter and Paul and the other apostles, never observed it. There is NO BIBLE AUTHORITY for its observance, strange as it may seem.

Then where did we get "Christmas"? Since it has come to us thru the Roman Catholic Church, and has no authority but that of the Roman Catholic Church, let us examine the Catholic Encyclopaedia, published by that Church. Under the caption "Christmas," you will find:

"Christmas was not among the earliest festivals of the Church . . . The first evidence of the feast is, from Egypt." "Pagan customs centring around the January calends gravitated to Christmas." And, further, we find this truth acknowledged: " . . . in the Scripture, sinners alone, not saints, celebrate their birthday.

Encyclopaedia Britannica has this: "Christmas (i.e., the Mass of Christ). Christmas was not among the earliest festivals of the church . . . ." It was not instituted by Christ or the apostles, or by Bible authority-it was picked up afterward from paganism.

The Encyclopaedia Americana says: "CHRISTMAS. It was, according to many authorities, not celebrated in the first centuries of the Christian church, as the Christian usage in general was to celebrate the death of remarkable persons rather than their birth . . ." (The "Communion" which is instituted by New Testament Bible authority, is a memorial of the DEATH of Christ.) ". . . a feast was established in memory of this event [Christ's birth] in the. fourth century. In the fifth century the Western Church ordered it to be celebrated forever on the day of the old Roman feast of the birth of Sol, as no certain knowledge of the day of Christ's birth existed."

Now notice! These recognized historic authorities show Christmas was NOT observed by Christians for the first two or three hundred years-a period longer than the entire history of the United States as a nation! It got into the Western, or Roman Church, by the FOURTH century A.D. It was not until the FIFTH century that the Roman Church ordered it to be celebrated as an official "Christian" festival!

Then HOW did this heathen custom CREEP INTO a so-called Christianity?

The Schaff-Herzog Encyclopaedia explains it clearly, in its article on "CHRISTMAS:" "How much the date of the festival depended upon the Pagan Brumalia (Dec. 25) following the Saturnalia (Dec. 17-24), and celebrating the shortest day of the year and the "new sun" . . . cannot be accurately determined. The pagan Saturnalia and Brumalia were too deeply entrenched in popular custom to be set aside by Christian influence . . . The pagan festival with its riot and merrymaking was so popular that Christians were glad of an excuse to continue its celebration with little change in spirit and in manner. Christian preachers of the West and the Near East protested against the unseemly frivolity with which Christ's birthday was celebrated, while Christians of Mesopotamia accused their Western brethren of idolatry and sun-worship for adopting as Christian this pagan, festival. "

Remember, the Roman world had been PAGAN. Prior to the fourth century, Christians were few in number, tho increasing, and were persecuted by the government and by pagans. But, with the advent of Constantine as emperor, who made his profession of Christianity, in the fourth century, placing Christianity on an equal footing with paganism, people of the Roman world began to accept this now popular Christianity by the hundreds of thousands.

But remember, these people had grown up in PAGAN customs, chief of which was this idolatrous festival of December 25th. It was a festival of merry~ making, with is special SPIRIT. They ENJOYED it! They didn't want to give it up! Now this same article in Schaff-Herzog Encyclopaedia explains how the recognition by Constantine, of Sunday, which had been the day of pagan SUN WORSHIP, and how the influence of the pagan Manichaeism, which identified the SON of God with the physical SUN, gave these pagans of the fourth century, now turning over wholesale to "Christianity", their EXCUSE for calling their pagan-festival date of December 25th (birthday of the SUN-god), the birthday of the SON of God.

And that is how "Christmas" got into our so-called Christianity! We may call it by another NAME, but it's the same old pagan sun~worshipping festival still! The only CHANGE is in what we CALL IT! You can call a rabbit a "LION:' but it's a RABBIT, just the same.

Again from the Britannica: "Certain Latins, as early as 354, may have transferred the birthday from January 6th to December 25, which was then a Mithraic feast, . . . or birthday of the unconquered SUN ... The Syrians and Armenians, who clung to January 6th, accused the Romans of SUN-WORSHIP and IDOLATRY, contending that the feast of December 25th, had been invented by disciples of Cerinthus . . ."

But if we got Christmas from the Roman Catholics, and they got it from paganism, where did the pagans get it? Where, when, and what was its real origin?

It is a chief custom of the corrupt system denounced all thru Bible prophecies and teachings under the name of BABYLON. And it started and originated in the original Babylon of ancient Nimrod! Yes, it stems from roots whose beginning was shortly this side of the Flood!

Nimrod, grandson of Ham, son of Noah, was the real founder of the Babylonish system that has gripped the world ever since-the system of organized competition-of man-ruled governments and empires, based upon the competitive and profit making economic system. Nimrod built the tower of Babel, the original Babylon, ancient Nineveh, and many other cities. He organized this world's first kingdom. The name Nimrod, in Hebrew, is derived from "Marad," meaning "he rebelled." (Gen. 10:6, 8-12)

From many ancient writings, considerable is learned of this man, who started the great organized worldly apostasy from God that has dominated this world until now. Nimrod was so evil, it is said he married his own mother, whose name was Semiramis. After Nimrod's untimely death, his so called mother-wife, Semiramis, propagated the evil doctrine of the survival of Nimrod as a spirit being. She claimed a full-grown evergreen tree sprang over-night from a dead tree stump, which symbolized the springing forth unto new life of the dead Nimrod. On each anniversary of his birth, she claimed, Nimrod would visit the evergreen tree and leave gifts upon it. December 25th, was the birthday of Nimrod. This is the real origin of the Christmas tree.

Thru her scheming and designing, Semiramis became the Babylonian "Queen of Heaven," and Nimrod, under various names, became the "divine son of heaven." Thru the generations, in this idolatrous worship, Nimrod also became the false Messiah, son of Baal the Sun-god. In this false Babylonish system, the "Mother and Child", (Semiramis and Nimrod reborn); became chief objects of worship. This worship of "Mother and Child" spread over the world. The names varied in different countries and languages. In Egypt it was Iris and Osiris. In Asia, Cybele and Deoius. In Pagan Rome, Fortuna and Jupiterpuer. Even in Greece, China, Japan, Tibet are to be found the counterpart of the Madonna, long before the birth of Christ!

Thus, during the fourth and fifth centuries, when the pagans of the Roman world were "accepting" the new popular "Christianity" by the hundreds of thousands, carrying their old pagan customs and beliefs along with them, merely cloaking them with Christian-sounding NAMES, the Madonna and "Mother and Child" idea also became popularized, especially at Christmas time. Every Christmas season you'll hear sung and chanted dozens of times the hymn "Silent Night, Holy Night," with its familiar "Mother and Child" theme. We, who have been born in such a babylonish world, reared and steeped in these things all our lives, have been taught to revere these things as holy, and sacred. WE NEVER QUESTIONED TO SEE WHERE THEY CAME FROM-WHETHER THEY CAME FROM THE BIBLE, OR FROM PAGAN IDOLATRY!

We are SHOCKED to learn the TRUTH-some, unfortunately, take offense at the PLAIN TRUTH! But God commands His faithful ministers, "CRY ALOUD, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and SHOW MY PEOPLE THEIR TRANSGRESSIONS!" Shocking as these facts are, they are the plain facts of history and the Bible!

The real origin of Christmas goes back to the ancient Babylon. It is bound up in the organized apostasy with which Satan has gripped a deceived world these many centuries! In Egypt, it was always believed that the son of Iris (Egyptian name for "Queen of Heaven") was born December 25th. Paganism celebrated this famous birthday over most of the known world for centuries before the birth of Christ. To be contd.

Church of God African HQ, P.O. BOX 65 Prestea; West Region; Ghana; West Africa